How to avoid Podfade

294. How to avoid ‘PodFade’

Are you getting fatigued making your podcast? Are you thinking, there must be an easier way to sustain this podcast? Well, most of us go through the phase of requiring inspiration for sustaining our podcast, but also about funding the making of it. This conversation is entirely focused on that. 

In this episode you will:

  • Learn what it means as a podcaster to experience “PodFade” – yes, it is a real thing
  • Understand that after you go past episode 10, you are in a select few 
  • Learn to use your podcast for business & personal interests
  • Take a deeper look at how to get your next 100 listeners for your podcast. 
  • We answer a question about how to avoid interviews that won’t get listeners.
  • Rethink your strategy for making your podcast more discoverable.
  • Understand the ‘discoverability’ of a podcast and how to achieve it.
  • Hear us talk about 1sheet or 1pager and why you need it right now. 
  • Learn from a veteran podcaster of 10 years hosting 6 shows.
  • Think differently how to best be a great podcast guest.
  • We talk in-depth about the importance of putting professionalism into it.

All this and more, on this week’s episode of  Should I Start A Podcast. 


Psst … make sure you listen to the end … I’ll break down this episode to give you 3 small steps you can execute right now to help you take this listening experience into execution experience. Enjoy the show. 


After you listen to this episode I would love you to do 3 small steps that will help you be more of a professional podcaster: 

  1. 1sheet for your podcast. This is mandatory. Make one now. Don’t know where to get started? Relisten to parts of this episode that mention 1sheet. Or look for it in the transcript which you can find at 
  2. Make a list of 25 places you can get more people to listen to your podcast. Where are the people you’d like to listen to your podcast right now? How can you get in front of those people? 
  3. List of 25 people you would like to interview on your podcast. Who is on your dream list?  → Aim to get 3 x NOs every month. 

What you pick as your strategies to grow will depend on where you are at in your business. Pick the strategy that is right for where you are at and not for where you want to be. 

These are 3 small steps that if you execute, irrespective of where you are at in your business and podcasting journey will make a huge impact on your making your podcast more profitable & more impactful. 

If this is the first episode you’ve listened to all the way to the end or if you are a regular, thank you … I love that you are here. Check out our back catalogue on, subscribe to the show and give me a review and rating, it really helps us get found more. 

If you are a business owner podcaster and want to join others just like you in a group where we share tactics & ideas on what’s working (or not) for us when it comes to using our podcast in the best possible way. For more on that go to … it is free. 


We Are Podcast 2022 – It is happening this year. For the latest announcements on Australia’s first podcasting conference for business owners, join the free group 


Stay tuned next week when we going to talk with Cliff Ravenscraft, the podcast coach who has helped tens of thousands start a podcast. We cover lots including how to use a podcast to monetise a passion you have. So, don’t forget to subscribe to the show to get that episode as soon it gets released. Until then, much love.


If you’ve never heard of our work before, there are 3 things that I think you would benefit from right now…

1. Listen to this playlist of How to Podcast for Business.

2. Get the the Recurring Results Roadmap (if you haven’t already).


Having worked with thousands of business owners to create a podcast for their business, I’ve created The Recurring Results Roadmap for Podcasters™.

It’s a step-by-step guide to growing your business to 7+ figures using your podcast.

Importantly, it removes the guesswork so you know exactly what to focus on at all times to generate that recurring revenue.

The best part? It’s personalised, free and it lets you get started straight away.

Download The Recurring Results Roadmap for Podcasters™ here.

If this is your first time here, this is Should I Start A Podcast. I’m Ronsley Vaz. Each week you’ll hear me, and a star-studded guest lineup, dig deep into the podcasting process. We’ll bring you tactics, tips and tricks to use in your own podcasting journey. We’ll teach you how to build an audience. And we’ll show you how to keep them coming back, show after show.

So if you want to start a podcast, or expand your current audience, this is the show for you.

Here is the transcript of the entire episode for those who like to read …


podcast, people, conversation, business, guests, podcasters, podcasting, creating, listens, clubhouse, thinking, realized, james, laura, feel, holly, stage, conferences, hear, audience


James Whittaker, Ronsley Vaz, Rebecca Beltran, Allison Melody, Catharina Joubert, Laura, Holly Shannon, Anna Vocino

Ronsley Vaz  00:11

indicator one, this is launch control, please advise when preflight checklist is complete. It is complete all indicators red, green.

Anna Vocino  00:24

This is should I start a podcast, a show for business owners looking for tips, tricks and ingenious hacks when it comes to growing a business using their podcast. This is your host Ronsley. He’s interviewed more than 1400 people and has been listened to over 5 million times in 133 countries, a TED speaker, author and a podcast purist who believes that we can use our voices to grow our business and our influence, you know, because every conversion in any business always happens in a conversation. And now Ronsley.

Ronsley Vaz  01:06

The first thing I feel like I want to talk about today is a podcast that’s not sustainable. And we have this a lot, right where we create a podcast, or we hear about someone creating a podcast that sometimes they have fun doing it, sometimes they don’t. And then they get to a point where they kind of like, oh, this is a bit too much. And it’s not a sustainable podcast for variety of different reasons. They don’t get the listeners they intended, they don’t get the traction they want, they don’t get the money that they think they’re gonna get the exposure that they feel they’re gonna get from the podcast. So I feel like today I would love to talk about and dedicate a conversation towards an unsustainable podcast because it happens a lot. And I’m sure the different perspectives, and there’s some amazing people here. So let’s get into it. So if Holly wants to get us going, very happy for that to happen.

Holly Shannon  01:53

Sure, I feel like there’s about 50 talking points right there. So there’s a conversation around pod fade, for people who start off with all the enthusiasm in the world, and they’re really ready to roll with their podcast and a handful of episodes in maybe seven to 10, they realize that it’s a lot of work, there’s a lot of components, a lot of little moving parts. And the fun idea becomes something that if they don’t want to outsource parts of it, they start to go into pod fade. So there’s a huge percentage of podcasts that are launched and then die after, let’s just say episode 10. So like, that’s one piece of a conversation we could easily have. The other thing is maybe having not the right niche, you really want to pick something that you can be completely passionate about for the long haul. And if it’s something that you kind of just did on a whim, and it wasn’t really well thought out, and it doesn’t maybe serve your business or serve your personal interests, think you can also hit a wall where you don’t know where to take your podcast, it was a great idea. But there wasn’t any heart in it. So I think that might be a second talking point for us that just really slides into your conversation Ronsley. So maybe I’ll just throw those out there and see if anybody wants to say something or just add something completely new.

James Whittaker  03:04

Oh, that’s great, Holly, and there’s a quote, I love it. I feel like they always introduce a new quote at these at these sessions. But the one of my favorite quotes of all time is when you want something bad enough, you’ll find a way to get it when you want something bad enough, you’ll find a way to get it. And it’s easy for people get overwhelmed by the work that it takes for a podcast when they’re not clear on the results that they actually want from that podcast. And having a specific goal in mind on what it is that you want. Perhaps it’s a revenue target, perhaps it’s relationships, perhaps it’s your own growth, perhaps it’s something else, like wider exposure for your business, whatever it might be really having that dialed in. And then before anyone launches a podcast, it’s easy to listen to those voices of what happens if no one listens, or what happens if it fails, and all of those different types of things. And I think you need to take that exact same amount of energy for any doubt that you have, and just shift the question. So an example might be what happens if no one listens, you flip the script on that to say, What am I going to do to make sure I launch with 100 listeners. And if you do that and get to work on creating that plan, it’s going to enable you to sustain that podcast.

Ronsley Vaz  04:05

It’s really fascinating. We might get into the pod feed a bit later, but I feel like someone that’s passionate that starts a podcast around their passion and obviously I’m speaking because there’s a wound here about a friend of mine this is how much he’s asking for a friend. So yeah, about passionate people let’s start podcast and then get to a point where it doesn’t really return for them. And I think it brings into James’s point about realistic targets or having targets when you start off I wonder whether anyone has anything to add to that

Anna Vocino  04:32

you know it’s funny because it’s really hard to know sometimes when you’re in that building phase of like, is this thing does not catching on as quickly as I obviously we all want our shit to catch on really quickly. We’re humans like really pleased but it gets cast like wildfire. Please put me on new and noteworthy please let it get you know the whole thing or is it just like you need to put more time in it and only you can decide. I do have a funny, funny little thing that happened a guy who’s had a radio show for years and I was on his radio show like six or seven times in the past couple years and And I didn’t realize that he had started a podcast and he wasn’t doing the radio show anymore. But he said, Hey, can you be on the my podcasts, like, of course, we put the date in the books, four to six weeks out or whatever. And then the night before, we’re set to record, he says, just so you know, this podcasting isn’t working out, I can’t get into listeners. So this is going to be my last one. And I was like, I felt very split about it. Of course, my attitude was, Well, then let’s go out swinging and have a good time. You know, I’m not going to cancel on it. But then another part of me was like, Well, why are you still doing it? Then? If nobody’s listening? I don’t know. So I would love to hear like what you guys think and about that kind of a thing. Because as a gracious guest, and somebody who I enjoy talking to this guy, so it was a no brainer, I was going to do it even if one person listens, you know, or nobody listens. Because to me, it always makes me a better guest. Every time I spend more time talking on the mic with somebody and riffing with somebody. But I’m just curious, like, that’s exactly James, kind of what you’re talking about. Like he was like, I’m done. But I don’t think it lasted for six months?

Catharina Joubert  05:54

Well, this is just such a big question I’ve just been trying to kind of gather my thoughts on on all the topics. And it’s, first of all, what Holly said, about deciding on your niche that is so important, because I think a lot of things go wrong. Just they’re just on that question of who are you creating your podcast for and people not realizing how narrow they have to go to really reach their audience, at least at the start. And it’s just this fear of focusing on only one topic. And they just want to talk about everything around their passion, if they’re really passionate about the topic they’ve chosen. And I think that’s when there is perhaps not a lot of responses when you’re just targeting too many people, and you’re not getting to the right people. And then you’re not getting that response on perhaps you’re not seeing like the download numbers or whatever the case might be. So that’s one side of the coin. I mean, this is actually just like a very strange, multifaceted coin. So there are just two sides to it. But that’s one side. And then the other side is, if you don’t have that niche and return, the thing about podcasts compared to something like YouTube is it’s less discoverable. So people really do struggle to get people to discover their podcast. So if you’re already starting with too broad or niche, or too broad an audience, and then you’re marketing too broadly, the whole thing just kind of snowballs. And that’s why people just start losing that interest. And that’s another reason why it’s just so difficult to sustain a podcast. So if you get it right from the start, and I have no idea how James does his getting 100 listeners before you even started your podcast, there must be some kind of methodology to that. But yeah, thinking of all these things at the beginning, which is obviously not easy, but the key?


Yeah, I think I very much, I mean, personally share the same sentiment as what James was searching on as about finding that clear why whether it’s to create more, you know, awareness about your business, or something that you’re truly passionate about. And I think, really diving into that about even how do you want to make these potential podcast listeners feel about what you are speaking about with my podcast. So I interview people who have found out that they’re going to die, or they would have like, limited quality of life for the rest of their life. And my listeners are typically their loved ones and their friends or people who have also been diagnosed with something similar. So I want them to feel connected, I want them to feel like they aren’t alone, and that they’ve maybe even learned something about their loved one that can continue to support them while they have them around for the rest of their life. And for me, like, that’s my podcast success. And that’s what will keep me going. So I think, yeah, diving really deep into all those different channels of why and not even what maybe your business or your self can get out of it, but what your listeners can, and that can really keep you motivated to keep producing really meaningful podcast episodes.

Ronsley Vaz  08:41

I wonder whether Rebecca has something to say to that. But one of the things that Katie mentioned about creating our everyone mentioned about creating the you know it for your niche and sort of creating the for your audience and why you’re creating it. It’s a lot of the times when we’re creating the podcast for the first time, especially, we tend to create for ourselves in the sense that we created for ourselves, because we still are trying to find our voice around the subject. And in that sense, it becomes more of a training exercise for us in in terms of what kind of podcasts we want to create, what kind of voice Do we want to put out? And you only get that idea for a few reps, I suppose. So a lot of times what tends to happen in Katie’s case, people create it for the love of sharing the stories, it’s really needed, obviously. And it’s probably one of the things that is avoided in the first world for some reason, the death and how we deal with that. So I think everyone that sorts of podcast comes in with a similar sort of enthusiasm about them creating their platform for the audience, and they’re creating this platform so that you know, people can hear the stories. What I do tend to see is that that enthusiasm gets to a point where you kind of like, Oh, I’m not sure whether it’s worth the effort anymore. And that is the discoverability part that Caterina was talking about. So if I don’t know whether Shane has something to add to the conversation, Shane, are you here?


Well, first of all, from what I can see based upon your resumes, what I’m here very, it’s a travesty that this room isn’t packed. So we got to figure that out the future. I’m just waiting for a flight, I got delayed. I don’t know how that’s in my hallway. But I’m looking at the BIOS and listen to the content. And I mean, we need to get you guys like, like this neat room needs to be like 10 times the size. Like, obviously, you guys know what you’re doing. So I guess for me, I think podcasting is going to be interesting in the future, I think it’s going to go away for many, but I think the podcasters that are actively on clubhouse right now are definitely going to be the ones that are going to kind of reengineer and re pioneer what’s going on. You know, strategic intention is always at the heart of anything that Jim and I do with our clubs in Main Street to Wall Street and dream team. We really don’t care about the quantity of followers that come we’ve had billions and billions of dollars of real estate on our stage. We’ve had millions and millions of commercial square feet across America and our stage. It’s just a whole different kind of strategic intention. But what matters in everything that you’re saying what we’re seeing is the right stage, the right people the right collaboration, right message. So as far as this stuff goes, like, how are you going to match in the future as a podcaster, what’s going on with clubhouse. And so the the fact that you guys are having this conversation, you guys are actively being active as podcasters and a clubhouse, I feel like two to 10 years from now you’ll pioneer the new direction of everything that social audio. So I was just coming in to kind of get bits and pieces. I don’t know anybody on here, which is rare for me a clubhouse, but I’m loving what I’m hearing, I’d love to have half of you come into our room sometime. And we’ll build it up a little bit more. Because I think along with some of our existing podcasters for real estate stuff, you guys have a lot of value of a little insight to give. So depending on my flight, if it’s getting delayed again, then I’m going to ping some more people in here and just hang out, you guys learned a little bit. So thank you for the stage wisely. And you guys are some like a badass group. So I’m just checking it out.

Ronsley Vaz  11:42

Well, great to have you here. So cool to hear the perspective as well as another career. And I love moderating these rooms, because it’s a different sort of atmosphere in itself. And I have more and more appreciation for obviously what Anna does live on stage. So thanks for being here. Shane, good to have you here. So I want to go back to this idea of discoverability. Because there seems to be a tendency, especially for the kind of work that you put into creating a podcast that the discoverability part of this new podcast becomes too much of work. And I wonder whether anyone has anything to say to that I when I see podcasting, I see there’s so many different elements to podcasting. And sometimes when someone has not done it before, they’ll end up creating the podcast. And there’s so much of work that’s gone into just making it and then showing up every week to just make it that the discoverability gets missed. So let’s open that conversation. Laura, you’re here. Welcome.

Laura  12:30

Hey, everyone, this is Laura powers. I’m a veteran podcaster. I’ve been podcasting for 10 years, I host six podcasts, and I’ve been featured by a lot of media I’ve been on well sterols, Ron Burgundy podcast featured by Buzzfeed. And one of the things I see with podcasters is the importance of creating professional promo materials and really treating yourself like a professional media person. And through doing that through creating one sheet through making sure you have a website with a media page listing all your media there, and just networking with other media and content creators, not just podcasters. That’s where I think I’ve really found a lot of success.

Ronsley Vaz  13:06

Totally agree with you, Laura. And maybe we’ll just touch on that topic you brought up again about professional creators, because we spoke about that last week. In our conversation we talked you spoke about being a professional podcaster. And you mentioned some terms that one pages, could you just elaborate on what you mean?

Laura  13:20

Yeah, so a one sheet is a one page document that is basically easy to look at. And it has what you talk about your specialty photo short bio website, social media handles contact information. It’s basically a way that you can share your information. And it’s something that someone can easily glance out and get like a snapshot of you who you are, what you’re about. And you can also create them for your podcast. So I create them for my podcast. And one other strategy that I don’t think a lot of podcasters use is getting press credentials for conferences and festivals that are related to their podcast. So I never really paid for conferences, because I’m either a speaker or I’m press and you can create a one sheet for your podcast. So what’s the podcast? What’s it about some featured guests, your audience, etc. And that’s how I’ve gotten press credentials for some pretty big, you know, festivals Cannes Film Festival. I just got back from that South by Southwest. I’m in film and television. So I tend to cover those festivals that whatever your podcast isn’t, you can do that for your podcast.

Holly Shannon  14:19

That’s brilliant. That’s like, dropped the mic for me. Thank you.

Laura  14:23

You’re welcome. I was gonna say too, I

Anna Vocino  14:25

think adding that component on to having a one sheet available. And not everybody wants to put their own personal one sheet on their sites and you just want to send it separately to people you’re emailing back and forth with but for your podcast. Any information like that is fabulous to have up on the site. Because as somebody who’s guesting on podcasts, I like seeing the ones I like seeing the information like it helps me get an idea plus from a marketing and branding perspective, it’s another opportunity to get your brand in front of people and to be really clear about what it is that you’re communicating. So yeah, that’s awesome. Well,

James Whittaker  14:54

yeah, I think it’s really really valuable. And I think to me, it’s a perception of quality. Someone who has that you know that they’re at least They a base level of that investment they’ve put into the brand, the perception of that alone. For me, when I get pitched by guests and potential guests and things like that, I actually think that’s very, very valuable and always get to reread for me if I get one of them, I literally had one this morning,

Holly Shannon  15:13

you know, I might add to, we’re always thinking about marketing our guests. So we’re always coming up with assets to highlight the most recent guests that they’re coming on, listen to it, this is the title of it, we asked for their headshots, and then we create that and we give it to them. And we hope that they posted on social media. And we’re always thinking about that side. But we’re not really thinking about our side. So I have to say, Laura, the creating one sheet that is specifically for your podcast or for you, and thinking of yourself in terms of the promotion train, I really liked that you got me thinking if literally,

Laura  15:45

the importance of just putting that professionalism into it. And the other thing is, when you’re putting it together, it helps you with that brand new piece, and also really makes you track your accomplishments. And I think a lot of podcasters don’t do that they don’t track their charts. They don’t track who their high level guests are. All these things help people understand and value your podcast. But they also help you recognize it for yourself, which I think is also really important.

Ronsley Vaz  16:09

I just want to echo what Holly said, as well, because it’s like, I’ve created so many one sheets for my guests, but never really struck me to create a one sheet for my podcast. Laura, that was good to have you here. Good to hear your voice. And you’re really welcome at all our panels. So thank you for that value, bomb. Catarina GSOMIA, say,

Catharina Joubert  16:24

I was just gonna say kind of exactly the same thing, just echoing what everyone said, Laura, as well, having a media kit ready for your own podcast. And especially if you’re planning on being a guest on other people’s podcasts. It just makes life so much easier. And someone mentioned this, it sets that tone of professionality. And once you get to that level, where it’s a simple exchange of media kits, you can see exactly, for example, who your guest is what their podcast is, if you want to do a podcast exchange, you send them their your media kit, they see what yours is about which audiences they’re going to reach. I mean, it makes the whole process just so much easier. And yeah, it’s great for to market yourself. So thank you for sharing that, Laura.

James Whittaker  17:06

It’s funny to the very first time you get asked for like, I remember the first time I got asked for an EP k where they were like, look, please send me your EP K. And I’m like, yeah, yeah, no worries at all. And you go straight to Google, what the hell is an EP K, and electronic press kit, having those assets and things ready to go is very, very valuable if the right opportunity comes along.


Hey, this is Elizabeth McIntyre. I’m the CEO of thinkbook, Australia, host of our podcast and leader of amazing humans. I’m on the inside of we are podcast members. Or as we like to call it the way Emily, if you are thinking about growing that business using your podcast and your online presence. Come join us on the inside. I would love to meet you, James and Ronsley coaches to get those recurring results in our business. If you want that roadmap, which we all follow to get those recurring results, you can download [email protected] are Now back to the show.

Ronsley Vaz  18:03

Well, let’s talk about this one sheet because this one sheet for your podcasts does something that we spoke about earlier, which Katherine brought up about discoverability about podcasts. And one of the things about an unsustainable podcast is people get to a point where they know it’s kind of not working for them, and they just keep doing what they’re doing. So what I would love from everyone here, and everyone that has podcasts here is if you were to give people advice in that state, what would it be like? What kind of perspective would you give them? What kind of stuff would you hope they understood? Let’s talk about like, what kind of advice you’d give someone that is feeling that their podcast is like unsustainable in the sense that they’re just not feeling the magic anymore.

Holly Shannon  18:42

So Ronsley You realize like the poster child for this conversation is so my podcast culture factor to point out when I started it a year and a half ago, it was a conversation around company culture. And I discussed every aspect of it through COVID. With the C suite, I sort of rebranded it to talk with emerging leaders about halfway through, and I found myself after about a year and a half, not having the bandwidth, or the energy or the desire to talk about company culture, specifically any longer. I started it with somebody, and it was for a business purpose. And I just was losing all the heart in it. And what was so interesting is actually Ronsley spoke with me a little bit, and I spoke with some other people about it, because when we build a podcast, we create an RSS feed, which stands for Real Simple Syndication. And there’s a lot of energy and time that went into building up subscribers and downloads. So you don’t want to quickly give that up because you decide you don’t want it for me. It required a study in what happened over the past year and a half in this conversation. And what I realized, after a lot of introspection is that there were three things that really kept bubbling to the surface of every conversation I had in company culture of the DEI conversation, which stands for diversity, equity and inclusion was huge. The second conversation was mental health and burnout. And the third conversation was the creator economy, the gig economy. And I realized that I’m not an HR specialist. So I felt that I could not serve dei in the way that it should be taken care of. And I’m not a therapist, and I didn’t feel that it was right for me to stand in a place talking about mental health and burnout, when that was not in my wheelhouse, either. But I realized as a three time entrepreneur, that talking about people who lost their job and created something, people who adapted or innovated or built during COVID was right in my wheelhouse. So I was able to spin my show to reflect that. So now my new iteration is about creative culture and creative economy. So I feel like I’m the poster child for that question. So I’m sorry, it took me really long to articulate that. But I think it’s important to see that you can salvage something that you’ve built, and bring it into another direction. Yeah, really well

James Whittaker  21:11

said, Holly, I think for me, it would be raising your idea of what’s possible. A lot of us we get stuck in our own head, especially during COVID quarantine, where we’re stuck indoors, we don’t have as much physical interaction, we’re not getting out and about like we used to. And when you do that your limiting beliefs really kick in your idea of what’s possible for you becomes greatly inhibited. So a good way to do that, which is also the second thing that I wanted to mention there would be getting some type of external accountability. So what Rhonda and I often ask people is when was the last time a potential podcast guest for you said no, most people only go after guests where they’re only going to get a 100% chance of saying yes, but you would be surprised at how accessible a lot of these people are. So having someone who you know is going to come on your show who maybe you read a book of theirs to change your life or someone you just want to be connected with. Having that in your calendar will give you an enormous sense of self belief that first of all, you’ve got them bought, but also that accountability, knowing that you’ll be able to have a conversation with that person, which will motivate you to then go after more and more people. And then I think finally just find someone who has the success you want and then do exactly what they tell you. That’s like the key to success in any field, I believe.

Laura  22:15

So I think for me, when I hit that point, I almost hit that point of stopping my podcast. So in podcasting, 10 years, about five years in I took a break and considered stopping. And what I realized was the significant factor for me, and that indecision was that I wasn’t having a return or didn’t feel like I was having to return the podcast. And that was when I really started to treat it more like a business. And if you don’t get that money back that you’re investing in, and in that time, that sort of return on investment, I think it is demotivating. So that is what I started to really do is focus on that. And a big tip in terms of making that change is to do promotions for whatever it is that you’re offering, whether it’s your own products and services, whether you’re an affiliate for someone else, any money making opportunities, and really treat that like it would be like a podcast sponsor. So I do occasionally stop sponsors. But what I’ve realized is I can make far more money by promoting my own products and services on my podcast, like it’s an ad, but content. And so if you do this, I do usually a mid roll and post roll. And it’s very effective. And I have a multiple six figure a year business based on doing this, the strategy. And I forgot to mention my book, and it’s very relative to this conversation is the number one podcasting book rock your podcast how to launch grow and monetize your show, I talked about more of these strategies. And I just want to say, James, I totally agree with you about reaching high for guests. And the worst thing you can get as a no. And once you’ve booked a high profile guest it’s really easier to book high profile guests, I early on had a guest named Dr. Bruce Lipton on my alternative health show. And he’s really well known. And as soon as I got him, everyone else was like, Well, you had re slipped and I’d love to be on your show. And the way I got him was through that tip I gave before which was I got press access. So get press access to conferences and festivals, frequently, you will have access to speakers that you wouldn’t have as just an attendee, or as you know, just random podcaster. And in some cases, the conference will actually line up interviews for you. They’ll say Who would you like to interview and they will set that up. So that’s what happened with that high profile guests that I had. And it helped me with booking others raising the podcast profile and then my audience, but then I could use more promos and make money

James Whittaker  24:18

lower on that point. I actually have a PR agency right now who reaches out to me pretty much every week to basically say, Hey, we’ve I don’t know how I got on the list. Originally, like, Hey, James, we’ve got this person who started like 30 businesses by the age of 30. Would you consider having them on your show? And I’m like, Yeah, I think we can work something out there. So yeah, just just climbing one rung at a time. It’s amazing what you can achieve from it.

Laura  24:39

Absolutely. I just recently was pitched Jack Canfield. So if you’re not familiar with Jack Canfield, he’s the co author of the Chicken Soup for the Soul series laters like over 200 books in that series, a major New York Times bestseller and they pitched me for that reason. Once you get on those PR lists, then you can get some pretty high level people that they’ll pitch you

James Whittaker  24:57

I think I could find a spot for you Jack somewhere.

Holly Shannon  25:00

Exactly, I need a PR list I need to get on one.

Laura  25:03

Yeah, just seriously just start applying to PR press passes, and you do the one sheet five for press credentialing to conferences and festivals that are in your area. And you will get on those lists period,

Catharina Joubert  25:13

I really resonated with what Holly said. And also with what Laura mentioned about like kind of the way we think about a podcast. And if we just change that thinking it can actually motivate us again. And sometimes it’s just a one slight shift in how we approach it. For example, Holly spoke about just focusing on one thing that that she was more an expert on and more passionate about and could actually speak about, it was kind of the same for me in my podcast journey. But I don’t really want to focus on that, I just actually want to mention one of the dangers that haven’t been spoken about. Perhaps James mentioned it briefly. And that is what I call like the hamster wheel syndrome. So one of the things that happen is, especially at the start, when you’re so fired up about a podcast is you get into this constant creation process. And it’s so easy to get caught up in it without actually noticing what’s going on around you. And then it’s that moment when reality hits you. And you suddenly check for example, or download numbers or something and you, you realize that it’s not been growing for so many months or whatever, that’s when that kind of like you just lose all of your motivation. So what I wanted to kind of just add on that is one excellent way of helping you restrict your thinking if you need to, but also regaining some of your motivation is actually getting in touch with other podcasters. And talking about some of the struggles you’re having whether this is within a business podcasting community or just the general community and attending kind of like conferences, I mean, festivals, all of these things. I know, the past week, I mean, I’m so far away from any where like United States, so I know there was podcasts, or what was it Podcast Movement or something like that. But yeah, so things like that just actually joining a community will really help you rethink, and just put a little bit of motivation back and gets maybe just reshift your podcast. So keep that in mind. And also the danger of not getting stuck in this kind of hamster wheel creation process, which can be very numbing. And when you do realize that nothing has been happening, shocking. And that can just have you upon fate almost immediately.

Anna Vocino  27:15

Yeah, I actually want to jump on what Katarina was saying. I agree. And I think it’s oftentimes I think, because I come from a background in the entertainment industry, that as a performer, the number one question that people ask themselves and ask, I guess I’m definitely somebody that people like to go to for advice. And people oftentimes want to know, like, Well, it’s been this many years, shouldn’t I just quit and give it up and throw in the towel? And it’s very similar in the sense to podcasting? And it’s like, well, not necessarily, it really all depends, I will say, as far as like, yes, go down all the avenues of all the action steps that you can take, yes, see where you’re putting your emotions too much into it, where you need to kind of remove your emotions to be a little more businesslike in your thinking, absolutely. Do all of these things before you decide if I’m going to throw in the towel, do the pod fade? Or if I’m going to just completely rebrand. And I know like for example, Holly, I know that you took a while and critical thinking and feeling and moving through your motions to analyze all of like, is this time to rebrand? Yes, it’s time to rebrand. I’m going to do that, as opposed to am I going to just give this up and start something completely new or whatever, like, we all have to go through those phases. Because by the way, no podcast is forever, we’re all going to be evolving and constantly wanting to change our messages. But I’m a very, like, intuitive, kind of like, instinctual. Whereas like somebody very businesslike, would say, No, you hang on to it, because that’s really dumb to sell. Here’s how I kind of quantify it. If something is taking up a lot of negative emotional energy, or like really making me stressed out and kvetch all the time, then two things has to happen. Number one, first of all, I got to look at like, what’s triggering in me? And is it something that I can fix? Or is it something that’s the problems inherently with the thing. So either you change the thing, or you change how you feel about the thing, if you were just consistently like, what James is talking about Katerina, about being on the hamster wheel, you’re not doing anything, which is more of the same thing. And if you look deep within you will feel it, it’s there, you just have to be in touch with it. I always tell people, it takes 10 years to get to making good money in the entertainment business. But you have to, like go through your ups and downs and like, and by the way, most careers in the entertainment industry are what everyone else from the outside looking in would consider maybe like 25 Different big breaks before things kind of became sustainable and people were hiring them repeatedly. Well, podcasting can kind of be the same thing. I mean, it is the same thing. We are infotainment. That’s what we’re doing and whatever your version is of your podcast that that is what we’re doing. And so I just would say like, I would always tell people don’t give up. Don’t pod fade. But if you do, then there’s a reason for that too. But look at what it is that you’re doing how you feel about it. Yes, the action steps you can take but like Katarina was saying how you can change your thinking. And what is it within yourself that it triggers because if it’s just a dog, it could just be a dog and that’s okay. You can stop it. You can always just stop recording, but maybe take a look first because you Never know, it might be just a slight tweak, and then you’re back in and better than ever.


So this is what’s interesting. It’s like two thirds of this totally applies to me and the other third doesn’t, because I don’t know what direction I’m going with all this, like, have an interactive soundbite platform where I give out content, but it’s only going to be subscription based. We’ve got it in beta. So we’ll see how that goes. What really struck a chord with me, James, with you, and whoever else said that before that, and I want to just say, you know, Laurie doesn’t look like you’ve been real active on the app. But I will tell you that when you talk about accessing high profile people, it’s been amazing. I remember early on and Dream Team Michael share, he says one of the guys that I know in New York here likes you, he heard you, he wants you to come in and talk to him about some stuff he wants to either you or jam or both of you to be on stage. We showed up on stage the next day, we’re like, Sure, let’s just do this little group. There was going to be a small stage two or three months, and there were six people on stage. And he said, Shane, I want to apologize ahead of time. My staff is really, really big on a major acquisition between Dubai and New York right now. But I have some people here and he had six employees on the clubhouse stage with him. And I was like, Holy shit, this just got real, real fast. I’m just the single family investment consultant that has curated some amazing conversations with high level real estate people all over our clubhouse, but all of a sudden, this guy showing up with six employees on my stage. I’m like, Okay, I better go do my homework. So I’m googling him. I’m like CNBC. And I’m trying to backchannel some of the other guys that are more connected to Wall Street and hedge funds, like, Hey, who is this guy? Oh, he’s a monster who does this that the other. And I had no idea what kind of conversation I was walking into the depths of the scale. And he said, Hey, next time you contact my people ahead of time, we’ll get you all the stats that you want for any information you want. Now, a lot of these guys are no longer on clubhouse, because this was Corona during the heart in the middle of winter. So now they’re busy doing stuff. And they’ve also found out that by sharing too much information, sometimes it’s strategically not helpful. But they will come back and do things as far as audience. So things resonated with me, James, and I think, Holly, love what you’re saying about reaching for those guests that will come up and help get things better. We’re getting ready to strategically care a conversation with Lee Brown. Hopefully, Linda was there at the last one, hopefully some other badasses in the real estate world will pop up about the future of real estate. And that content that’s going to reach the audience, whether it’s 50, or 100 people that day, is uniquely curated in such a way that first of all, it’s a clubhouse thing. But when you get to talk about just being curated content, as far as what you guys do, as podcast people, it’s also very, very unique. It’s a combination of getting the guests having the research, having the audience having the traction. I don’t understand podcasting what you guys do, but I definitely understand clubhouse. So there are some things here that are just interesting to me, they resonate. My thoughts are all over the place with this. And it’s just great to get to see what you guys are doing what you’ve done. I thank you for pioneering the space of podcasting and bringing some of that to clubhouse. But this is a little bit of a different beast. But in some ways, it’s the same beast, right? So we just kind of got to figure out what content is king, how to curate it to the audience and go for it. We’ve always worked with the acronym of taco, which is transparent, authentic, competent, open minded. We try to vet our sources offline as much as you possibly can. But I just kind of love and being a fly on the wall in here and hanging out. So thanks for all the stuff and you guys just kind of triggered a couple things in my head. I just wanted to share. Shane,

Ronsley Vaz  32:49

really good to have you here. Again, always welcome. We do this Tuesday morning, my time Monday, yours I’m in the future a little bit. But every week, same bat channel, I was wondering whether Katie or Rebecca had anything to chime in on on ideas for someone that’s thinking about that’s in a pod fade scenario where they kind of wanted to think about their podcast is not sustainable anymore. You fit any sort of thoughts for that. Rebecca, do you have anything to add to that conversation? Before we wind this up?

Rebecca Beltran  33:12

Yeah, I have something. So a couple of years ago, I found myself overwhelmed with a lot of new tasks for a new business. And I found the thing that was the most helpful was to sit down and ask, if I didn’t have to do anything on my list, what would I actually want to do. And so I made a list of the things that I actually wanted to spend my time on, there was only four things on the list, spend as much time with my partner as I could work with as many clients billable hours as I could have some time for myself and have some time for friends and everything else, I realized could actually be outsourced laundry and cooking and all kinds of things could be outsourced. And I feel like that’s the same attitude that I would approach the cod fade or starting to run out of steam with a podcast. And we talked a little bit about metrics at the beginning of the hour. And I found that for me a lot of the traditional metrics of downloads and ratings and things like that don’t make sense. And they don’t motivate me. But when I found that we’re looking at my show, as a nurture sequence instead of as a lead generator made a big difference for me, and knowing that the conversations I have with people after the episodes or introducing someone in person to an episode because I realized that you know, they really need the episode about pleasure and grief. So I mentioned something like that, that motivates me way more. And being able to shift that metric in my head was a big piece of what gave me the energy to keep moving and to decide, okay, well, there’s a lot of things that I don’t actually like to do here. I’m gonna focus on the pieces that are pleasure, since that’s my thing. My show is pleasure central radio, I want to do things that actually do feel like pleasure, and that’s how I want to spend my time. So how can I do those things and continue to get what I want out of it, and it shifts the lens enough that yeah, that’s what I would encourage people to start looking at if they’re in that situation. A lot of the podcasts were Old thinks of podcasts as a lead generator, that the top of your pyramid where you can get people into your marketing pyramid. But for me, it really isn’t. It’s not a lead generator because I don’t get any clients from my show. It’s more about taking the conversation around pleasure and relationships and sexuality deeper. And that’s why I do it. So once I had that perspective, shift and change the way that I started counting things,

Anna Vocino  35:23

Rebecca, I’m the same way because I’m in the health and fitness space and helping people to meet, it resonates more to have people feel nurtured through my podcast through my weekly clubhouses through my emails, like putting up free content to me, I want to get people to feel supported so that they stick with cutting out sugars and grains. So I it’s very much not a lead generation, it’s very much like if you feel supported, we’re building a community here, then you’re gonna want to be a part of it, you’re gonna be excited when I come out with a new sauce. So that’s I liked that, Rebecca, thank you that resonates. There’s something

James Whittaker  35:53

Rebecca mentioned there that I want to quickly touch on it when you wake up every single day. Now we have so many different metrics to falsely evaluate our own self worth. You can look at Facebook likes, you can look at post likes, you can look at ratings, you can look at listeners, all of these different things. And it’s so important is to have that great idea of what a success look like to you. And when you wake up in the morning of just being happy with the present day rather than constantly looking at all those false metrics of success.

Ronsley Vaz  36:19

Rebecca, thank you for that perspective as well. But just to wind this up sponsorships obviously is a huge part of making your podcast sustainable, because the money that sponsors pay for your content just makes it more sustainable. And we were talking about creating a sustainable podcast so that was really apt. Allison, congratulations on Podcast Movement. Sounds like it was a lot of fun. What was your biggest takeaway from Podcast Movement? Allison,

Allison Melody  36:40

I’m just honored to be a part of the conversation. But what I do is I help passionate podcasters land lucrative sponsorship. So do you have any questions about sponsorships? Just DM me on Instagram? I just did a talk at Podcast Movement had a lot of fun in Nashville with Holly. And yeah, if you guys have questions about sponsorship just hit me up. I’m trying to provide value just like the conversation we just had. I’m just to give her so happy to help. I mean, so many I would say it’s like, don’t be afraid to network. Don’t be afraid to introduce yourself to people. Because the thing about when I used to go to conferences when I was a newbie and I had no idea what I was doing, I wouldn’t really talk to people because I was like I’m here to get the content from the people on the stage. And now that I’ve completely reframe that I’m just like, Hi, I’m Allison melody, who are you like I have made over the past like five years of doing the conferencing things, some of the closest friends in the world at these conferences. And every time I go to one, I make one new friend, one new business contact, that might be it that are friendships that will last a lifetime. So just talk to people whenever you can. Don’t be afraid to network. I’m actually an introvert, and I’m going up to people now. So if I can do it, y’all can do it too.

Ronsley Vaz  37:39

Yeah, we all are introverts. Podcasting is the introverts game or something like that. I think it’s built for introverts. Allison, good to hear your voice Good to hear everyone else’s voices. I’m going to wind this and land this plane. Ladies and gentlemen, we talked about podcasting for business every week, for an hour. And we’ve gone over this time because you had such a great conversation about creating a sustainable business, podcast and sustainable podcasts. And next week, we’re going to cover another topic around podcasting for businesses. Thank you for being here. Thank you for being here every week. Laura, really good to have you. Please join us every week, Rebecca as well. Please join us every week. Katie Shane, thank you for joining us. Really good to have you here and hear your voice.

Holly Shannon  38:12

Hi, everybody. I’m Holly Shannon. I am the host and producer of culture factor to point out and I’m also the author of zero to podcast. I’m really looking forward to this conversation today because I think it’s really important conversation. So thanks for having me. Ronsley Yeah, great

James Whittaker  38:26

to be here with you all. I have a podcast called win the day with James Whittaker and Ronsley. And I have a business where we help podcasters really be able to make money doing what they love. Super excited to be here every week and help out as much as possible.

Anna Vocino  38:37

I’m Anna Vocino, and I’m the co host of the fitness confidential podcast. I’ve kind of the food and comedy component of said podcasts. I used to produce it for many, many years. I produced many podcasts over the years. And I’ve since grown it into having two best selling cookbooks, I’ve launched a food brand. And I’m very excited because I get to talk to Holly tomorrow morning on

Catharina Joubert  38:55

either one, everyone so great to be here. So I’m Catharina Joubert I help small business owners put real spark and originality and value back into their content, using podcast videos on social media. And I also host the show creators abroad, which deals with all aspects of the creation process. That’s me. Thank you.


Hi. It’s so wonderful to be in this room with such an incredible talent for people. I’m Katie and I host the beyond the clouds podcast where I interview guests who have been diagnosed as chronically or terminally ill and yet hear about how that impacts their life and really invites listeners to reflect on how they’re living their own life and what really matters. And that’s me.

Ronsley Vaz  39:34

All right. So you still till the end, you found this useful and you have a business and Paul, you have a podcast and a business and you kind of want to make it work for you and grow your business using this podcast will. You know what? That’s something that I have helped 1000s of people do and 1000s of businesses do in different forms, through an agency in a one on one fashion through a conference Put in a group and obviously courses and stuff. So please, I want to be able to give you something that you can use to get recording results in your business using a podcast. We call it the recurring results roadmap. It is years of putting this in practice. It is the blueprint to get results in recurring results using a podcast if you’d like that, send me a message [email protected] I want to hear from you. I want to hear your voice, or I want to hear from you. So if you’ve listened to this and you want that roadmap, please send me an email [email protected] I want to hear from you. Much love and I’ll see you in the next episode.

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